Belt problem

[GrahamNZ]

Despite the stock belt guarding, yesterday the belt picked up a small bitumen-coated stone which embedded itself between two teeth, casing a small almost-central bump on the outside of the belt. Not noticed while riding but I detected the bump while checking the belt at home, as I usually do after a ride. I removed the stone but there does seem to be slight disturbance of the Kevlar fibres. Maybe the sprung belt tensioner fitted helped the belt cope with the stone.

Does this mean the belt should be replaced ASAP?

Here, road re-sealing often involves chips laid onto wet bitumen and slowly passing motorists are used to compact the surface immediately after laying. Contractors are meant to roll the surface themselves but they seldom do because no one forces them to. Bloody slack contracting and a cheek to require motorists to do the compacting. I wonder if that kind of nonsense occurs in other countries?

Oh, yes, and another 300km run before the fuel light came on, which equated to 23.5km/l or 4.25 l/100km.

[GrahamNZ]

While many out there, and in here, are busy ripping the stock belt-guards off, I spent yesterday afternoon removing mine to modify them for better stone-exclusion. That involved adding black synthetic-rubber roofing-sheeting in strategic places. The modifications are virtually invisible, except in my mind's eye where they glow beacon-like in a field of bitumen-coated gravel! If anyone expresses interest I'll post some photos.

[BuellGator]

The belts are incredibly resilient and if the stone did not produce a hole I say don't worry to much about it.

I however would like to see the results of the belt guard extensions.

[GrahamNZ]

BuellGator

Here you are then. I used 1.5mm black Butynol roofing membrane, sometimes in two layers, fixed with heat and water resistant contact adhesive.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Additiontofrontoflowerouterguard.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Toprunguardatfront.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Linkbetweenhuggerandbikeabove.jpg
This barely noticeable because of the Buell saddlebags fitted.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Linkwithsaddlebaglocator.jpg

[jeffgre_6163]

My theory in regard to the chicken strips is that the main line you have arrowed is the average extent of your maximum lean angle.
Most experienced riders would be very consistant with how far they are comfortable leaning.
Hence it becomes very pronounced on your tires.
The contact below this line is from things which are out of the average zone.
IE situations where you lean more than normal [entry too fast in to a corner] or more likey from raised sections of road, such as clipping a cats eye for example or when you hit a bump at average lean which distorts the tire more than normal.

Thats my 2c

[GrahamNZ]

Jeff that makes sense but the marks are the same on both sides of the tyre, which would largely rule out surface camber and cat's eyes. The clean strips appear to have marks on them, but the surface just hasn't marked like the rest. As if the compound may be a bit different there???? I've never seen this kind of marking before.

[MartyMax admin]

My belt had problems last week also. :mad: At a measly 33 k the darn thing broke... and just as I was about to pull a nice wheelie too.
Not a problem though as my pal Buellgator :cool: had another just waiting for me to get. Oh did I mention that I had the 2003 belt that was supposed to be replaced every 15 k. It only made it just over twice as long as it was supposed to.
So, total repairs made to the bike since it was new was 2 idler pulleys, a battery and a belt. What, maybe 220 bucks total in 6 years!
This bike has been the most reliable bike that I have ever dreamed of owning. Not to mention the fact that she still takes me home with a huge smile on my face.
Not to hijack the thread there Grahamnz, sorry. After what my belt went through I wouldn't sweat it. Ride it out and keep an eye on the possible damaged spot.
I don't know what our rocks are coated with but whatever it is it's plenty hard.;) And yes, our contractors here are just as bad. Lazy and cheap is a worldwide problem.

[SauRoN]

Graham my tyre looks exactly the same, which means one of two things.

I can call myself an experienced rider as per Jeff's comment, or it's a property of the tyre which I doubt since you probably have the Diablos on.

What's with the Lifetime warranty on the belt? How exactly does that work, because I heard there is still a recommended replacement interval.

[GrahamNZ]

SauRon

My tyres are Metzeler Roadtec M1. 3,000km on them and still well rounded.

My understanding is that the belts on 07 and 08 bikes, maybe 06 too, are rated as lasting indefinitely with no replacement limit set. Somehow I doubt that a belt which fails due to stone damage would be covered by warranty. Then again if the bike is stock, it could be argued that the guarding fitted was deficient by allowing a stone to get into the works and cause the failure.

I wonder if the belt guarding on the Ulysses is more effective than on the other models? After my stone episode I looked carefully at the guarding on the Ss and found many points where stones could bypass the guards. Hopefully my mods will do the trick and hopefully the belt won't break because of the small amount of damage it has sustained.

[dobr24]

And I just took all my guards off. Oh well DANGER is my middle name.

[2Evil4U]

The belts are not warrantied. I broke mine at 16748 miles. (I carry a spare so it wasn't a problem. Stone marks are probably not that big a deal. Mine had significant cracking evident between the teeth across the width of the belt about 500 miles before it went twang.

[GrahamNZ]

2Evil4U

How do you carry the belt? And the tools necessary?

Provided a legal document is clear in meaning, it must be interpreted literally. The Buell warranty can be interpreted literally. One of its terms is that it expressly excludes the right of dealers to modify the warranty provisions in any way, including by adding their own conditions or their own interpretation of the terms and conditions.

The 2007 Buell advertising booklet states: "The Hibrex belt never needs lubrication or replacement. It's rated to last the entire life of the motorcycle." The Owners Manual also doesn't state a replacement point. From that the owner is entitled to expect the belt to be everlasting. Maybe a bold offer, but made nevertheless.

The 2007 Buell Warranty information states : "This warranty does not cover: ......."or the replacement of parts due to normal wear and tear......including such items as the following......clutch and chain/belt adjustment (including chain replacement)." It does not include belt replacement. Therefore belt failure is covered because it requires no maintenance, has no wear limit and is not a chain.

The bikes are fitted with belt guards. Why? It is reasonable to take that as being a means of preventing possible injury to persons and to exclude foreign bodies affecting the belt performance adversly. If the guards fail to do that - there is no warning not to ride the bike over gravel roads or new chipseal - and a stone is allowed to enter, pass between the belt and its pulleys, then the guards have failed to be "fit for purpose". which is certainly a legal requirement here and probably in the USA as well.

As I reported in an earlier post, I found several areas where guard design could be improved to exclude stones thrown by the rotating tyres. Holes in protection which an army of lawyers could walk through line abreast.

If an owner chooses to remove the guards then they automatically absolve Buell from liability for belt failure. If the stock guards fail to exclude stones which are a common occurance on roads in many countries where Buells are sold, and a belt is damaged as a result, then the belt should be replaced under warranty.

[BuellGator]

It looks to me like you have damn near enclosed the belt, and accomplished that while keeping it invisible. Graham you are the man:D!!!

[2Evil4U]

The belt and a spare clutch cable fit in my Uly's top box along with a spare fan, first aid kit, 12v tire pump, plug kit, spare foot pegs, and a shifter linkage. (I tend to break stuff....) I also have a roll of duct tape, toilet paper (long rides...), JB Weld, spare key and zip ties in there. On top of that I can usually pack my pillow and laptop bag in the same case.

I carry the tools in the side pockets of the deluxe tank bag. Changing the belt only takes three tools. The torx wrench to remove the front and top belt covers, the hex wrench for the side foot pedal mount and the hex wrench for the swingarm piece.

Riding from Baton Rouge to Atlanta tomorrow. Hopefully the snow lets up by the ime I get there.

[GrahamNZ]

The guarding modifications were updated a bit today. There are really two problem aspects - stones being thrown forwards when they could possibly be carried in between the underside of the top belt run and the front sprocket - stones which might fall onto the top of the belt bottom run and be carried into the rear pulley.

The lower inner guard should have been extended at the front where I've add the infill piece, and carried further back where I've added the rear infill piece. Here the SS should have been swaged to fit just outside the pulley so that the wheel can move forward a little as the axle is released and as the belt tension is released. At the rear top, the SS should have been more protective but still allow the plulley to move forward a little when required.

The lower outer guard should have been moulded with additions as I've made to prevent stones from being thrown forward and dropping onto the lower belt run.

All in all, with more thought, Buell could have achieved a lot more protection with very little more weight and cost.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Lowerinsideguard.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Finishedeffect.jpg

2Evil4U
A Ulysses with luggage! That explains a lot. Are the Ulysses guards different from those on the other models?

[SauRoN]

BuellGator : Any clarity regarding warranty on the belt? Is it only covered under the normal 2-year warranty, or does it carry a lifetime warranty as interpreted through the manual?

[2Evil4U]

graham, I think the guards are about the same. they don't do all that much.

sauron, my dealer has warantied a tire, front brake rotor and the clutch cable but would not cover the belt. i'll be interested in what gator has to say.

[GrahamNZ]

2Evil4U

Thanks for the feedback. I had hoped the Uly had more effective guarding. I may be fooling myself but I feel a lot more confident that the additions made to my guarding will keep stones out. Time will tell.

IMHO the belt should be covered by warranty because it is not excepted and if the guarding allows a stone in then the guarding is defective. Beyond the two year warranty period, probably not without taking a claim to court. Somehow I think a belt would be cheaper and quicker than that! What does a belt cost anyway?

[TREADMARKS]

Careful.

Too many guards may reduce the flow of air from the cooling fan.;)

[2Evil4U]

the belts for my uly are about $180 each.

not cheap by any means.

[Dickc]

[QUOTE=2Evil4U;34514]I carry the tools in the side pockets of the deluxe tank bag. Changing the belt only takes three tools. The torx wrench to remove the front and top belt covers, the hex wrench for the side foot pedal mount and the hex wrench for the swingarm piece.QUOTE]

Can the belt be changed along side the road?

Can you provide the detailed procedure for replacing the belt... what to loosen first or take off first, second, etc?

Does the rear wheel need to be elevated to change the belt?

In the manual it says to remove the rear fender... is that necessary?

Thanks in advance,

Dickc

[2Evil4U]

i'm on my tilt so this will be short until I get back to my laptop.

yes.
yes.
no.
not quite.

i'll write it up when I get back. (although i'll be PUI so we'll see how it goes.)

[GrahamNZ]

TREADMARKS
No worries about that. In stock form, stones can be thrown forward and get to the cooling fan! My oddity at the rear of the hugger prevents that. OK it would look terrible without saddlebads to hide it.

2Evil4U
Thanks. I expected more. My slightly bruised belt may outlast me, so I'll just live dangerously and hope the belt will last and the extra guarding will prevent more stone damage. It is a small country here and I could always walk home at a pinch. ;)

[SFYTR]

Graham, I love your argument, but I doubt it would hold up. I do believe the belt would be viewed at every dealer as a equivalent to a chain, and thus be exempted from warranty. that gets an individual into the I'm right, you are wrong warranty world where YOUR bike is not moving, and the dealer doesn't care, he's not riding it!

Despite other board member's claims, my 2003 9R amazingly broke the belt (trolling down a 25 mph road) at like 6024 miles (very close to the web reports of 6000 mile stock belts).

The updated belt has no indication of failure and over 12000 miles to it's credit currently, so I am happy.

These days, belts are comparable in cost to chain systems that perform as well. The chain, of course, has much more maintenance. It seems 03 belts had an issue. I know of no others. And many sites have reported belt rock issues with belt holes and no subsequent belt failure. Personally liking the 03 pulley gear set, I retained stock and used the 04 replacement belt ID and am very happy.

I would say ride it, Graham.

I also disagree with the belt installed roadside. Just how do you properly release the belt tension and reinstall (rear wheel bolt)? I don't know of a tool I carry on my bike, or that could fit, that would allow me to move that rear tire bolt. The fitting is small, but the torque to move it is not. That and I'm not into carrying around ~$140 spare parts which age as you store them:D.

You can probably do it, in an emergency, but I sure wouldn't expect it not to be side impacted (the number one cause of belt failure) from rolling it onto the pulleys.

Just an aside, Graham, did Buell pay you consulting fees on the new XT??? The pictures I saw, I immediately thought of your bike!:eek:

Clif

[GrahamNZ]

Clif

Thanks for that post. Agreed that carrying a belt to install at the roadside isn't an appealing proposition and that more serious tools would need to be carried too. What I would consider myself is buying a belt and keeping it at home and if a belt should fail while on tour, have my wife courier it to me so that a bike shop could fit it under my supervision. The way the bike is designed to make replacement easy does impress me and at home I'd find it a straightforward task.

Yes, the new XT does look like my kind of bike. No consultancy fees unfortunately. Hmmm, looks good though. Apparently Buell had a full belt enclosure on a bike they sold to the Police. Maybe they have the parts to offer that at least as an accessory?

[2Evil4U]

[QUOTE=2Evil4U;34514]I carry the tools in the side pockets of the deluxe tank bag. Changing the belt only takes three tools. The torx wrench to remove the front and top belt covers, the hex wrench for the side foot pedal mount and the hex wrench for the swingarm piece.QUOTE]

Can the belt be changed along side the road?

Can you provide the detailed procedure for replacing the belt... what to loosen first or take off first, second, etc?

Does the rear wheel need to be elevated to change the belt?

In the manual it says to remove the rear fender... is that necessary?

Thanks in advance,

Dickc

The way I did it on I-75 was to remove the front belt guard. Remove the screws for the foot peg/rear brake lever backet (let it hang), remove the 2 or 3 torx screws for the top fender on the right hand side over the rear wheel. Remove the four bolts for the swingarm piece. Then you can put the new belt on the front pulley, run it over the idler pulley and roll it on the back pully from the bottom to the top. (That can be a bit of a PITA as you have to kinda hold the belt on the sprockt a little as you walk the bike forward.) After all the teeth are engaged and the belt is hanging off the right side of the pulley, smack the belt on sideways with your hand rather than walking for three days. Reinstall all the little parts in reverse order. Really pretty quick once you've done it.

The service manual recommends loosening the axle about 15 turns and dropping the tensioner. All I know is that if I'm 500+ miles from home, the belt can be changed on the side of the road quickly and for over 4000 miles since the change it has shown no ill effects from my "compromised" installation. If I were given a "change out frequency" rather than the "Lifetime" BS I'd do it in my shop properly, otherwise, I'll just carry my spare and a few tools.

[Dickc]

Thanks 2Evil4U,

Thats what I was looking for.

Dickc

[rscxx]

Despite the stock belt guarding, yesterday the belt picked up a small bitumen-coated stone which embedded itself between two teeth, casing a small almost-central bump on the outside of the belt. Not noticed while riding but I detected the bump while checking the belt at home, as I usually do after a ride. I removed the stone but there does seem to be slight disturbance of the Kevlar fibres. Maybe the sprung belt tensioner fitted helped the belt cope with the stone.

Does this mean the belt should be replaced ASAP?

Here, road re-sealing often involves chips laid onto wet bitumen and slowly passing motorists are used to compact the surface immediately after laying. Contractors are meant to roll the surface themselves but they seldom do because no one forces them to. Bloody slack contracting and a cheek to require motorists to do the compacting. I wonder if that kind of nonsense occurs in other countries?

Oh, yes, and another 300km run before the fuel light came on, which equated to 23.5km/l or 4.25 l/100km.

no dude, thats a brittish roadbuilding formula, they do it in Scotland aslo as iv seen, but in the USA we seal roads more with tar, but only replace them when some car falls in a pothole! .. there can be a lot of potholes here before the road is replaced .. frost heaves in ths northern states.., but we dont use ur method of small stones.. a new raod is nice and smoothfor about 3-5 yrs, its a different riding xperience as far as iv known..
cheers

[SauRoN]

I doubt there is any reason to worry...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/2evil4u/CIMG1718.jpg

[GrahamNZ]

Mud, mud, glorious mud - is not a bitumen coated stone!

[xoptimizedrsx]

Mud, mud, glorious mud - is not a bitumen coated stone!

yep not the sticky sharp stones. i ruined a belt or two from the same type ofstones. they poke a whole right through the belts if they dont crush.

the only option is to run the spring loaded tensioner it will allow the stone to pass through easer with out over tensioning the belt making it puncture the belt..
that is a option avail from a few other locations.

mike

[GrahamNZ]

Mike

My Ss is fitted with a Free Spirits spring loaded belt tensioner. Maybe that's why the belt DIDN"T break?

Currently working on the Stage 3 belt-guarding upgrade - to protect the front section of the rear pulley. That seems to be the only really vulnerable part remaining now.

[xoptimizedrsx]

Mike

My Ss is fitted with a Free Spirits spring loaded belt tensioner. Maybe that's why the belt DIDN"T break?

Currently working on the Stage 3 belt-guarding upgrade - to protect the front section of the rear pulley. That seems to be the only really vulnerable part remaining now.

YEP THATS IT.
You should look at firestone site. it shows how objects are actually thrown into the rear tire from the front kicking then up.

like before i think they are coming from your front hitting the rear side edge of your tire kicking then off at a agnle onto the belt. the day mine broke. i had stone marks and sticky stones on the side of my tire and on the bottom of my exhaust.

bet all the bike in your case needs id a little deflecter to pass the stones off before the make it to the tire and belt. i'll draw up a idea. bet you could put a lip attackment on the front of the lower farring at a angle to the rear. about 2 inches down reverse moon shapes to catch the objects and kick then off to the sides.


kind of like your splash guard but upside down and backwards and a little longes. a combo guard no water up no stones back or water .
it would be a compound curve though.

if developed i bet other will use it. with belts. even on other types of bike. heck even chains will benefit. no rocks , nails , debri and ect being tossed at the rear tire means less flats on the rear and damaged tires . that is good for all..

mike

[GrahamNZ]

Mike

Excellent suggestion, thanks. I'll have a simple deflector fabricated and fitted before wine time! (about 5.30pm here).

[GrahamNZ]

Mike

Is this the sort of gadgetoon you had in mind? I'm not capable of forming compound curves easily but I can fold OK. The unit is fabricated from 1mm (0.040") half-hard alloy sheet and faced with 1mm black synthetic roofing membrane to withstand stones better than paint. The unit projects about 40mm (1.5") below the muffler bottom and is about 180mm wide. The shape was influenced by those lovely "cow catchers" on the front of old Americal locos. Now to see how it works.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Finishedfrontdeflector1.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Finishedfrontdeflector2.jpg

The front and rear of the stock muffler look as if they've been shot blasted!

[GrahamNZ]

Just back from a 200km run over "racer road mountain" where the deflector kept grounding so it looks like the bottom corners need trimming a bit.

The Buell has had a rest for the last week or more as I've been away on the Guzzi. Also tested a 2008 Yamaha FJR1300ABS. Both lovely bikes but somehow the Buell is just more FUN and FEELS the best by far.

[ponti1]

Seems to me that those corners will take care of themselves after a couple more rides! :D

How did the deflector do in protecting the desired areas from debris?

[GrahamNZ]

ponti1

Yes, they would "self trim" but I don't like the scraping sound when they touch down.

No real roadworks to ride over yesterday, but melting bitumen and loose surface stones aplenty. No problems.

In the next few days I'll add the final mod - a guard for the open front of the rear pulley. It will be an aluminium sheet affair fixed to the stock top guard which is part of the hugger.

Why I want to sort out the belt guarding is because for my next birthday (just before Christmas) I'm hoping to get a 2009 Ulysses XB12XT. Unless I can sort out belt guarding and regain belt-confidence that won't happen. A touring bike for me must be able to cope with any road conditions and remain problem-free.

By the way, the indicator that my belt had collected a small stone was a ticking sound as I wheeled the bike into the garage. "Why should anything tick on this bike?" I thought, and so investigated it.

[GrahamNZ]

Deflector modded for more cornering clearance.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Modifiedfrontstonedeflector.jpg

[GrahamNZ]

Hopefully the mods are now complete. This one is to prevent stones from reaching the front of the rear pulley and being carried down to the belt as it enters the pulley.

Fabricated from 1mm half-hard alloy sheet and covered where exposed with 1mm Butynol roofing membrane. A small bracket locates the bottom edge. Barely detectable. Fingers crossed.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Upperguardaddition1.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Upperguardaddition2.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r180/GrahamNZ/Upperguardaddition3.jpg

[xoptimizedrsx]

that should do the trick the rest of the way. so how did my first idea work out for you. any stones hitting it much.

[GrahamNZ]

Mike

Your idea of fitting a deflector behind the front wheel really impressed me, which is why I implemented it straight away. Does it work? Hard to be sure, but it has been peppered with stones judging by the marks on it already.

Thanks again.